Ops Cast | Is The Path to CMO Through Marketing Ops?

In this episode of Ops Cast we chat with Vivian Chan who feels that the future CMO will come from Marketing Operations.  Tune in to hear why she believes the future of C-suite will be from the Marketing Ops background and get some practical advice on being HEARD by your leadership for the brilliant mind...

In this episode of Ops Cast we chat with Vivian Chan who feels that the future CMO will come from Marketing Operations. 

Tune in to hear why she believes the future of C-suite will be from the Marketing Ops background and get some practical advice on being HEARD by your leadership for the brilliant mind that you have!

Recorded live on June 3, 2021.

Hi, I’m Michael Hartmann, I’m Naomi Lou, and I’m Mike Rizzo. And this is ops cast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MO Pros. The number one community for marketing operations. As professionals tune into each episode, as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you in your marketing operations career.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to ops cast, episode 12 by the MO Pros. If you’re a regular listener, now we are, uh, on several platforms. So hopefully you’re, you’re getting this by. You’ve subscribed through Spotify, apple podcast, Google whichever platform you like. My name is Michael Hartmann. I’m joined by my co-host today.

Naomi Lou and Mike Rizzo. Say hello at everyone. Hello? Today we are excited to have with us. Vivian Chan, Vivian is currently the global head of sales at next tech AR solutions up in Vancouver. I believe she’s here today to talk about the idea that future CMOs will come from up through marketing ops. So hopefully this will get your attention.

Uh, I know it caught my attention when we talked. So with that, let’s get started, Vivian. Uh, thanks for joining us today. Why don’t you tell the audience a little bit more about. Yeah. So thanks for having me. Um, so I am a 21 year veteran in technology, marketing and sales, and, um, I’ve worked in sort of big corporate at SAP and VMware where I was, I held chief of staff strategy roles, uh, reporting to the CMOs.

So I really have a sense of what the office of the CMO looks for. Um, but more recently I’ve been more, um, in the entrepreneurial space and I’ve been an, um, in a number of. In the augmented reality XR space as well. And so one of the things that I’m sort of parlaying my experience over the years in both marketing and also, um, you know, new emergent technologies is I’m going to be, um, yeah.

Working on a, on a, on a channel called Vivian channel.com. And so I’m going to be breaking down simple, uh, technology in very human terms. So, so, so excited to chat with you guys about where things are at.com. Is that what. It is. Yeah, I’ll have to all check that out. That’s cool. All right. Well, so let’s get going.

Uh, so when you and I spoke a few weeks ago, Vivian, you, you know, we were just kind of tossing around different ideas. You said that sort of provocative statement that you believe the CMOs of the future will come through marketing ops. Why don’t you like break down what that means, why you think that’s the case and what you meant by.

So I believe that the secret sauce of a marketing. Um, success is heavily dependent on two things. Um, customer journey and experience, understanding how to map, um, and link all of that, um, together as well as sort of going digital. I mean, we’ve seen with the pandemic, there has been a massive acceleration of what was already happening.

Um, everything going online, everything going digital, you know, events went digital. You know, experiences went, digital, everything is, is, is heavily dependent on now what I would say a hybrid, but always digital first. And then, you know, in-person second model now, all of that requires marketing operations.

It doesn’t happen, um, without, um, the back backend of systems that. All of that intelligence together. And so, um, what used to happen for a CMO was you would be graded on, um, you know, your brand, your narrative, um, you know, your sort of the communications, the, the voice of the company. Now, I believe that success is predicated on sales.

It’s predicated on data-driven decisions and that data all comes through a marketing. Stack and system that data now informs content and informs what people are actually really interested in hearing about where there’s energy in, in topics that they’re interested in. It also informs tactics and strategy with respect to lead gen.

Um, and we’re even seeing, you know, like my job, like my job is a blend of marketing, but also sales, but really I’m using a nurture fund. To literally create a no touch sales, you know, you put in a credit card and you buy, um, that’s all, you know, grounded in marketing ops. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I, it, it resonates so heavily with, uh, my, my role at Mavenlink and even in past roles, but, you know, just, just recently we, we launched our very first community at Mavenlink and, um, There’s so much that goes into building community, like the MO Pros and like the one for the B2B community and Mavenlink, but the data that we’re gathering out of that is it’s, it puts a whole new spin on how do you leverage this information to create a better experience for your clients, right?

Or your customers, or however you refer to them. Um, we implemented a tool that, um, Search unify. And it’s a unified search platform. Hey, I just flipped the word around. That was funny. Um, so it’s an enterprise search platform that allows you to connect things like your Google docs and your internal knowledge base, your external knowledge base and allow your clients to find the things that they’re looking for really fast.

But what’s interesting about it is that on the backend, you can see all of the insights. Hey, these are the queries that my clients are looking for in these different specific environments, whether that’s a community or the knowledge. Or inside of your product itself. And if you, as a marketing operations person or whoever it is that owns a tool like that are not doing your job and passing that information along to your head of content or to your head of product marketing, you’re doing a disservice to the organization.

And what’s really fascinating to me is that like, yes, it’s on you as the owner of that tool to try to figure out ways to leverage that. But what’s fascinating is that. Isn’t at all ever thinking about having their strategy, be derived from tools that can provide this information. And I think there’s partly a reason for that.

Right. And Vivian, maybe you can speak to this a little bit. Like, I don’t think that means that you’re losing sight of, you know, brand positioning. Right. And like your, your position on the world and like what you believe to be the right message to send out. I E thought leadership, right? You still have to have that opinion.

But I think your opinion can be informed and shaped by the inputs that you’re receiving, particularly from tools like search unify or other products. Right. Other data points, whether that’s in your MarTech stack or elsewhere. Um, but what are your thoughts on like, does that, does that mean that we should just kind of steer clear of being a thought leader in a particular category and just focus more heavily on the inputs and just writing messaging that is really dependent on those inputs or.

Where’s like a balance between those things. I think the smart marketers and the product marketing teams will very soon realize. And again, I think the marketing ops team needs to do a lot of education, um, around what the data shows and, and build that, build those bridges because you know, in my career, you know, in.

Demand gen roles. It was always a bit nerve wracking. You would build messaging, you know, often you would be a decent writer. You have a sense of what the technology was. You’d read a lot about the industry and you basically compiling all that information into like a campaign now. And then you hoping that you’re going to get conversions of more than 2%, right?

Like you’re just hoping, because you know, sales sales is sales is banking on that. Right. And, and so this whole shotgun approach of like hope and pray isn’t working anymore. I mean, it’s one of the worst things of being a marketer because you just have inconsistent results. And so I think the message. Uh, to those teams that you guys are working on is like, Hey, we can drive more consistency and results based because we can test some of those taglines.

We can test some of those messages, um, in events of you launching that campaign. You know what you may think may be a great headline. It’s something that has no energy for people. Um, and the data will confirm or negate whether that headline has energy and whether it’s going to be, uh, have a higher propensity for driving those conversions.

Like these are things that I think need to change in the whole workflow. And I think the industry is. A little bit needs to catch up a little bit more. And I think marketing ops has to provide that leadership that there are new ways of doing things. And I think if you can frame it as, Hey, we’re going to help, um, stabilize results, but we’re also able to help with conversions before you launch a campaign.

Um, I think that is the message that needs to be shared. And I think they, you know, any marketer would be very amenable to working with, uh, I just, just to piggyback on that, there was a, there was actually a thread that I was going back and forth on, on our slack channel, the mobile slack channel, where, um, someone who is, I think a little bit junior in their marketing operations career had asked this question about, you know, she gets perceived as being very, um, technical, right.

And doesn’t get invited to the strategy meetings or when she brings up strategic thoughts or ideas, because she sees the data. Her viewpoint or, um, suggestions tend to be kind of discarded or, okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s good. But you know, we view you as more of a technical person and she finds herself hitting a block sometimes because, because of the fact that she’s perceived as technical and not strategic, and there was, you know, the question of how do you kind of, you know, So much is putting, raising your hand and saying, Hey, I have these ideas, but being taken as seriously as somebody who can potentially bring something to the table on the strategy side.

Right. So that’s also something that I think can be an interesting discussion. I don’t know if, again, if you have any thoughts around that, like how do you kind of break that ceiling? You need to have sponsors in the organization. And so you’re not going to change the organization, um, immediately in terms of the ways of doing things.

I mean, literally if you using marketing ops led to. To like, change your workflow to change the way you develop marketing. That’s a massive undertaking. And so what I would say is that find, um, find a willing participant, right? Find a product owner, a product marketer, or a global campaigns manager that is very receptive, um, and is receptive, but also has, um, you know, some talent and understanding data and start with maybe a simple question.

What are the questions that you have. You know, what are the questions? What are the business questions that you have that, that, that some of our data could provide? You know, um, you know, what are the pain points for your ed tech solution, as an example? What, um, what are the big drivers, you know, like, and then work with them to kind of build using sort of business led, um, strategy with the data that you have to kind of build those outcomes and then show the results.

I mean, if. If my, if the hypothesis is right and we’re pretty confident that it is that, that by using this sort of planning approach with data in the beginning data to create, and then data at the end, you’re going to see, you know, that campaigns manager or product marketer will be seeing, you know, X three X or two X better results.

Now you’ve got a use case. That’s got the CEO’s attention. Now they’re going to be like, okay, we want to do that. Whatever you guys just did for everyone, for every single unit. So start small. One of the things. In this conversation already that have kind of bubble up in my head is one that I think I’ve already thought of.

One that I think is, is one that I think a lot of people might be skeptical about. So one is the importance of data and the amount of data that we now have, right? The real challenge is having people who know how to take advantage of that, because it’s not just a simple reporting thing, right? It is. How do you get insights from the data?

And I think that to me is a big shift in what the, what we need to do. People in the marketing ops space do better, is to be insights driven people as opposed to reactive report, just reporting kind of people. There’s, there’s gotta be a part of that storytelling the second. And this is where I think there might be some where I think your, your statement initially, like that feature CMOs could come from this is that, you know, the historically, especially on the BT seaside, or maybe once it, like, you know, companies that like to have a, um, a creative kind of fun brand, you know, I still think that, and I believe it’s, I still think there’s a value in having some amount of your budget.

That is just for crazy ideas. Right. So that it’s not necessarily data-driven, but like striking that balance is what you mean. Do you see that as well? Like, like I think a lot of people hear what you say, say it’s got to be data-driven that means that all the creativity is pushed out of marketing. And I don’t know that anybody, I don’t think you’re saying that, but I want to make sure that that’s not the.

Yeah. So I’ll give you a great example of where creativity and data can exist. Um, I use a technique, um, uh, I call it micro testing, but it’s really multi-variate testing. So, um, I use Facebook as like the, like the lowest cost focus group known to man. It’s like for $30, I’m able to test creative, um, uh, sort of creative, uh, imagery, but also headlines and taglines.

And so the test that I run really is to see how many people click, click, and engage, um, over X amount impressions. And if it hits a certain formula, I know that that that item has energy. What precludes a creative person to be able to test imagery. Like you may think you’re this logo version, a logo is more beautiful than B, but it’s so subjective.

Why don’t you put it out to the audiences that are part of your, your segment to really see what creative works more for others? And the shocking thing is what, um, I would say 50% of the time. What I think works. Isn’t actually what people vote for with, through their clicks and actions. And so I think that, uh, while you can be creative at all, um, that creativity still needs some validation.

It’s still very subjective. I agree with you on this night, I did a similar thing back in the day when it was search marketing, right. With, with that was to me, one of the big values with ad words, you could literally try two different taglines for the same ad. And I remember. Having one word, like one word difference in it didn’t seem to me like it would make a difference, but it made a huge difference in terms of the click through rates and things like that.

Yeah. I love that idea. Those micro focus groups.

But I think creativity and logic now come together in a more methodical way. And it’s not just a, you know, oh, I think this is the right thing. I think that just, that, that just makes everyone lives a little bit more, you know, um, Stable like your, your job is more stable because you’re a little more certain with the investments that you make.

And that’s the other thing, right? A CMO, oh my gosh. Hardest job. Right? When sales aren’t going well, you’re like under fire, you’re not giving enough leads when the product isn’t, you know, good enough, the product is blaming you for not messaging it. Right. And so you’re always the piggy in the middle. And so now as a CMO, you finally actually.

Like you actually finally have a narrative that’s based on fact that you can go back to product. You can go back to sales, to hold everyone accountable for what everyone’s responsible for before. It was just, yeah, you didn’t have that. I mean, it was the toughest job. Um, I would say in, in the C-suite man, that is a really, really difficult job and it sort of goes back to, so we’re talking about, you know, this, this path to becoming a CMO through marketing operations, um, Personally, I I’m fascinated by that concept.

I think, um, it’s a bit of a divergence away from just being like heavily technical. And truthfully, I had a tab, I think I still have a tab saved in my Chrome browser that says like the path to, um, the we’ll call it the C-suite, but it literally said the path to CMT. And I actually thought of that more as like, Sir, uh, certified a, um, a chief marketing technologist.

Right. And so, and that at the time, like, you know, we’re talking over 10 years ago was kind of the hot trend. Everybody’s talking about like, oh, there’s going to be like the chief marketing technologist. That’s in charge of all this budget and buying all these tools and all this stuff. But in reality, that just kind of shifted more to the CMO.

Yep. Um, and so like what makes a COO a CMO? These. Um, at least at this point in time is definitely like there, they’re getting more data centric, but I think they’re still coming from like the, in my mind, they’re still coming from kind of the creative side of things or the demand gen kind of lead gen side of things, but not really heavily technical on how products are integrated.

Why do you think. The marketing ops function is really going to like be the path to, to the C-suite these days. Like what about that function gives them that path and, and doesn’t stay, dig deeply technical. You’re the reason why results happen. You know, like if you’re not, you know what I mean? You can’t message your way to success.

Like you, you have to kind of nurture, create nurture streams and. You know, uh, use intent data to, uh, find buying signals. Um, you, you can’t spam the world, right? As you guys know, um, there’s a lot more science and craft, uh, that is about managing and preserving those tests, customer touch points to create value.

And so, um, so, so, you know, just to kind of build on that, I do think marketing ops folks though, in order to take a step to come see them, You guys probably need to consider, like, instead of like, once you’ve mastered sort of the marketing ops piece to find a role that is in the messaging area. So to do two to three years of that, you know, um, do product marketing as an example, but leveraging, um, the, the techniques that made you successful in marketing ops.

And I think that may be a pathway because a CMO at the end of the day, if I were to summarize your. Um, a technical storyteller. I think the future CMOs really encompassed those two things, your technical in terms of the operations and the infrastructure of marketing. Um, but you need to be able to tell a damn good story, right?

Cause you need to do it in publicly, but you also need to do it internally. And so, um, getting that storytelling messaging, um, uh, expertise is, is, uh, is a necessary, uh, you know, uh, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me being able to weave together the story that the data tells plus the messaging that you want to bring to market that resonates with your audience.

Um, and I liked the idea of going into product marketing. I personally, I never actually went down that path. I ended up going more into the growth side of things and kind of the demand gen side of things. But, you know, I, I think product marketing is a really natural fit for a marketing operations person, because so much of what happens in product marketing is research related.

You can leverage your, your skills of looking at data and having an influence decisions on whether it’s technology that you’re buying or implementing or leveraging as best practices. You can use all those skills and apply them into. Uh, marketing, sorry, a product marketing, uh, role where, you know, you can help advise what messaging really resonates with the current customers on new and existing features within your, within your tech stack.

So that’s a really good call-out. I like that. Um, so just kind of moving down our, our talk track today, um, we were wondering what advice you would give to our listeners. Who feel that they’re not really perceived as strategic, um, and, and help them begin to change that perception like within their broader leadership.

And I think we started to touch on this, uh, earlier with, with, uh, Naomi’s Naomi’s throw that she was talking about. Um, but do you think that there’s any tactics where maybe it’s like types of reports that you’re producing or. Um, is it literally just raising your hand and just saying like, Hey, like, listen to me, I think it’s to, I think it’s to actually get out of the report, um, like reporting is such a big part of a marketing ops role, but to, to take it one level higher, you know, otherwise you’re in that reporting hamster wheel and you’re known as the reports person.

So you need to like, like you’re still gonna provide that service and that’s like an essential step. But it’s reframing, uh, what a marketing operations person can do. And, um, I’ve done this throughout my career. I make up projects. I’m like, Hey, I have an idea. I want to do a special project. I think I can drive conversion.

On this major global campaign, um, and here are the four steps that I’d like to implement in collaboration with a group of people that are involved in this. Um, and let’s see if we can drive, you know, higher results. And if we do, we’re going to get a stronger return on marketing spend. Now, if you volunteered to do a special project that has a, a method to the madness, but also an outcome that is better than, than that of today.

Socialize that with all the people that you would need to collaborate with, get their buy-in and then raise it up to your manager or to your manager’s manager to kind of say, Hey, do we get, have your buy-in to try this thing out. It’s not going to, um, you know, take that much more time because we’re already doing this, but we’re going to try and do it a little differently.

And so, um, not being afraid to, um, Structure a special project and lead a spectrum project. And initiate one I think is, um, is a way to go forward. I think it’s, it’s a way to also get noticed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I think that you’re touching on something in Naomi. Maybe you have some thoughts on this too.

Like sometimes it’s really difficult to feel comfortable speaking up in some, you know, some of that comes down to cold. Um, but I think some of it comes down to just management, not knowing how to interact with, with that function. Right. And Naomi, I know you’ve nurtured a lot of your team members. Um, so we’d just love your thoughts on like, you know, how, how to, how to marketing operations and Vivian you as well.

Like how do we change that? Culture right. And get them to feel comfortable speaking up. Or maybe during the interview process, we’re bringing it up. I don’t . And for my, for myself, the suggestion that I had actually on that thread and what I say to a lot of my team members is that, you know, don’t wait for people to call on you and ask you for your opinion.

Right. It’s take that initiative. So early on in my career, instead of I struggled with that too, right. I struggled with, okay. She’s like the it person, she knows all the technical stuff. We’ll figure out all of this and then we’ll give it to her and she’ll essentially build it with her team. At the end of the day, I feel like, and this is something that I am a strong believer of that there’s nobody that’s going to know your data or your customers, or just the information that they’re giving back to you more than your ops team, because we are the ones that.

You know, and I, I dare to say this even more so than sales that directly interact and interface with this information on a, on a daily and regular basis. Um, and, and ideally you’re seeing the crossover, right? Like literally seeing the lead go from, from your team to sales and then you’re watching, does it make it to the end or not?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, my thing has always been, you know, don’t wait for others to call on you. You set the pace and the tone of it. And so, you know, a good way that, you know, I’ve done. At least that EFI is that, you know, we’re now starting to host QPRs, right? So meetings where we are presenting and proactively speaking to, you know, our business partners about things that are working, things that aren’t working, any changes that are coming in the industry.

So for example, things like, you know, cookies and browsers and new features to Marquetto and whatnot. And then the back half of the meeting tends to be things like, you know, these are the things that we’re noticing that you should do that you aren’t doing. Building ideas and giving them ideas. Because a lot of times, you know, especially if we are ones that are interfacing with technology, sometimes our business partners don’t know what they don’t know, and they don’t necessarily know, Hey, this is something that we can do.

Really. You can send a nurture email to people that, you know, have watched a certain percentage of a video in vineyard. We can do that. Yes, we definitely can. So it’s, I think when it comes to things like strategy, and this is the suggestion that I would always give to folks getting yourself out of the techno tech, Nicole.

Mindset and having others view you as more strategic thinker is just start scheduling. One-on-ones reach out, tell them, Hey, you know, this session of things that I’m thinking of, what you should be doing and start small. It’s not gonna change overnight, but I think being proactive can go a long way. We have a question for you because I, um, you are someone that is able to explain technology in.

In the really clear fashion, like how did you learn how to do that? Because I think one of the things that I do see with, um, you know, some sales operation professionals is that they get too much into the weeds of the systems and all that. And, and when you share too much, um, detail with an executive, their brain just fries and they don’t hear anything, they’re like sizzle can’t hear anything.

You’re always able to kind of explain it in like the right level, but also explain it. So clearly, like how did you get to that? How did you, um, first thank you. I mean, I don’t know if that’s something that I, you know, in my brain has thought about. Um, but I guess for me, it’s I tend to skip the middle.

Right. So what I have found for folks who are trying, who I’m trying to explain technology on why we’re doing something and it could be. And it depends on why I’m explaining to them, right. If it’s, because I am trying to get them to give me money to fund something, then they don’t necessarily need to know the in-between of why I’m super excited about this platform or this technology or what this means that.

To know that, oh my gosh, I’m so excited that it integrates seamlessly into Marketo with via lunch point or, you know, it’s going to save this many hours for my team to do X, Y, Z. They just care about what it’s going to cost, what it’s going to give them at, how to make their life easier. Right? How is it going to make them and their team and the company look better and get better results?

So I kind of think about the end goal. Or the ends takeaway for them and then just work backwards from there and then skip all of the in-between stuff that you and I would care about that I would be like, Hey Rizzo, like, oh my gosh, look at this. This is like, how has this been so amazing? You know, we don’t necessarily come at a price at that point where we’re just like, you know, I can do this with one click and before it had to be 10, so they don’t care about that stuff, you know?

So yeah, that totally resonates. I w I want to be a fly on the wall when you’re explaining technology to an executive next time,

it’s hard. It’s really hard. And I think you also touched on something where, um, it depends on the audience you’re talking to, right? Like you talking to me, Naomi, you know? Yeah. We want to get into the weeds on like nerding out on the capabilities and stuff, but. Um, yeah, if you’re talking to your boss, that makes a lot of sense.

Skipping the middle. That’s skipping the middle. Yeah. Skip the middle. I think that’s like the, the takeaway from today’s. And I think, you know, if I could offer up a little advice to some listeners that might be thinking about how do I present ideas to the team in general? Um, one of the things we used to implement on our team was, uh, and it’s a familiar working model for scoring, uh, Different projects.

And it’s just that it’s called the ice score ice. And so you can look that up, right? Google, I score, it stands for impact confidence. And you can have a bunch of different ideas and then you basically rate what you think it’s going to mean in terms of your impact to the business and the particular project you’re working on.

How confident are you in your ability to bring that to the team and bring it to market with the current, you know, team you have in place, the current technology, and how easy is it for you to actually execute against? And so if you actually come up with a series of different ideas and then you say, Hey, I also took the time to think about.

Which one of these might be kind of the lowest hanging fruit using this ice score model. Um, that’ll show that you’re thinking strategically already about your strategies that you want to pitch. And you’re going to open up a door for someone that says, wow, Hey, not only are you thinking of pitching the ideas on this new strategy or this new campaign, but you’ve strategically decided which ones of these you want to talk to me about.

Um, and I think that can maybe, maybe get you to. Um, like potentially. So I found that that was helpful in my career. I don’t know if Vivian, have you ever used any models like that when London campaigns.

No, I’m thinking I’m going to, I think I’m going to book it’s it’s it, unfortunately it was, it was a lot more intuition. Like that’s, that’s the reality people that write copy content campaigns. Um, and it’s a lot of sales feedback. So I would actually add that as well. Like, um, a lot of times. You’re getting your ideas and your notions also from sales feedback.

Um, that’s the other thing I would say as a stakeholder for a sales, uh, um, a revenue or marketing operations person, um, build some allies and connections in the sales organization, because you need to, you know, while you’re looking at the actions and the data on the, on the backend, you probably want to hear from the folks that are, um, in the field and that are navigating clients and whatnot.

Um, I have found that having a connection to what sales is hearing, seeing, and thinking and, and their stressors, um, is incredibly invaluable. And so, um, a lot of my approach from the campaign standpoint has been more from the sales feedback. Very good. I love that. I think that’s a really nice segue into our optional question, which we’ll, we’ll use to kind of wrap up the day.

Um, and sometimes we drop this on, on people blindly, but I think you’ve had a chance to maybe think about it a little bit. At least I hope so, but I also think that you would just have an answer no matter what. Uh, and so that question is, you know, at MO Pros, we’re on a mission to try to create a certified.

Marketing operations professional. And we’re trying to define what that means. And so it’s folks like yourself that are providing input on that, on these ops cast calls, as well as our community at large is going to be providing input, um, hopefully at summer camp as well. We’ll ask a series of questions during our in-person event coming up soon, but Hey, shameless plug.

Right. And then, um, so I would just love your thoughts on like, Hey, if there was a certified marketing operations profession. Um, and there’s this credential, what would that mean to you and what do you think should be included in? Yeah, I love that question. Um, and I’m so glad you guys are thinking about frameworks to scale, uh, what marketing operations can do.

Um, my first thought is marketing operations is more than just demand gen. So I think your certification has to be grouped to some degree. I would look at, uh, the marketing org structures of like maybe 10 organizations, you know, and to see if there are, come on commonalities and differences. Right. Um, so just brain riffing off of that question.

What is marketing operations or it’s almost like not marketing operations, it’s strategic data operations. Like what does the marketing operations function? How does it feed into the communications function? Right. So, um, you know, there’s a, a tech stack for that. How does that tech stack inform, share a voice and, um, sentiment and all of that, um, and, and monitor signals.

And then, you know, obviously a module for demand lead gen a module for product marketing, a module for, uh, maybe advertising, uh, digital marketing, you know, so I would align it to some of the functions because at the heart of what marketing operations, um, is, it’s a horizontal function that touch that should ideally touch it.

Touch point of the marketing organization. So you gotta gotta map it. Um, I think to the marketing work,

I love that answer. And I think, um, you know, even in what you said prior to me asking that question and talking about interfacing. Um, and we’re saying that as well, or we hear a voice through campaigns and all of these other things. Um, I think a lot of it, uh, I agree it has to, it has to be integrated across the org.

Um, and so I appreciate your very expert point of view on that. And soon we’re going to have a whole episode, I think, dedicated to this topic, and then hopefully we’ll come up with something that is really impactful to, um, Uh, to the community at large. So, um, thank you, Vivian, for, for all of your insights today.

Um, I think you mentioned a place for our listeners to find. You in the future, right. A new website you’re working on. Yeah. Um, it’s yeah, I’m, uh, I’m launching a creator platform. So, um, this is a do it yourself, video and hologram, uh, platform for creators, whether you’re in the literally literary visual or performing arts, uh, to be kind of able to host their own shows and content.

And so I’ll be a creator on live accents. So my, um, URL. WW Vivian channel. Vivian channel. I love it. All right. Well, thank you to everybody else on the cohost side of things, Naomi and Michael, as always, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you both. Um, and for those of you that are listening, thank you for being a part of OpsCast.

Uh, you can find us at the MO Pros dot com. So, um, visit the homepage there. You’ll see all of our. Recordings right there on the homepage. Or if you want to go straight to the podcast itself, just go to the MO Pros dot com slash ops cast ops C a S T. And please give us a subscription rate us and review us.

We really appreciate the feedback. And if you’d like to be a guest or you have suggestions on topics or future guests, just use our contact form or reach out to me directly on LinkedIn or any one of the folks in the community. So thanks again, Vivian really appreciate the time and. We’ll call it a wrap.

Thanks everyone.

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